An Ordinary Walk

Check out a custom site I made just for this: https://sauntercast.henryzoo.com!

Laurel Sauntercast.0:00

Henry Yeah, I guess we could talk about how it started already. So we’re in the mall right now. We’re…0:01

Laurel The official name.0:09

A walking podcast

Henry We could talk about how we came up with this idea of doing a walking podcast.0:14

Laurel Yeah, I mean, from what I understand, Henry, you were on someone else’s walking podcast. Is that right?0:19

Henry Well, actually it was just that I had one, and then my friend was like, “Oh, we should do a walking pod.” I don’t even know, I have to ask him, but it’s someone that had the idea a long time ago, and he called it Sauntercast because his idea of walking, kind of just seeing where you go.

And I think he wanted to make an app, but I was like, “Oh, I already made an app.” And then I just vibe coded an app today right before this.0:27

Henry All it does is just record the GPS plus time span. So we can just use that. I guess I’m going to make an app that when you play the audio from this, you can see where we’re walking. Actually, it’s kind of funny. We were just talking about it in the mall. It’s 3D, so it’ll be interesting. I can do like a spiral staircase down these.0:51

Laurel Oh, yeah, 3D map.1:17

Henry Flights of stairs, yeah.1:18

Laurel It’s kind of insane but pretty neat.1:41

Henry Or make it like a custom app where you have to download it just to do it. That would be interesting.1:58

Henry And then I was just on the way over. I was like, you know, when we take the photos, they usually have location attached to. So I feel like we could take snapshots and you had the idea of a shutter.2:06

Laurel Oh yeah if we take a photo we can add a camera shutter sound.2:17

Henry Yeah, sounds good. It’s funny, part of me wants to do a voiceover where, “Hey, now we’re walking through the revolving door.” Although you could follow it, I guess, going through the door.2:23

Laurel No, that kind of circles back to something I was thinking about. It’s so interesting just to be a participant on a walk, but to actually hear a walk recording, I feel like you need this third meta layer.2:40

Henry It is interesting that the podcast is such a isolated thing, like people just sitting and then talking. But obviously people like walking and talking all the time, so I don’t even know if I’ve heard of a podcast that wasn’t when people were sitting down. I think there’s the car one, right, where there’s people…3:03

Laurel In a car.3:22

Henry I think it was Car Talk, but they’re still in place, right?3:23

Laurel Right, our feet are literally moving and we’re passing by other humans.3:29

Henry It would be funny if you had to walk in order to listen to it or something.3:37

Laurel Oh, that would be funny. It.3:47

Henry Starts pausing or something.3:48

Laurel Right. I mean, there’s the idea that by sharing our coordinates, people could retrace our steps as they’re listening.3:50

Henry There’s something about that that’s really interesting.3:57

Laurel Or it only works if you’re in Central Park.4:00

Henry I guess we’re in the crowds.4:05

Laurel Yeah, we’re in the crowd. So we agreed to meet at the southwest corner of Central Park, and we are about to enter…4:12

Henry The monument? Oh,4:24

Laurel Yeah, there’s the main monument.4:25

Henry Also today is really amazing it’s like the perfect one it’s.4:28

Laurel It’s really good weather.4:35

Henry I guess you can tell everybody is outside.4:40

Laurel I’m curious, what interests you about doing a walking podcast? I mean, I can guess, but…4:47

Leaving notes in the world

Henry Initial, so I don’t know if I thought too hard about what the implications are, but I do think that I was reading some of what you were writing recently. In place, in, was it? I don’t know, you said in situ.5:26

Laurel Coding in situ.5:39

Henry How do you think about that?5:48

Laurel Yeah, I mean, technically that term or phrase my friend Benjamin Earl has been writing about. But I really like it because I feel like it just gave me a name for what I’ve been doing for a while.

I guess over the years I’ve been asked to make people websites, and I kind of find I can make the best website if I just hang out with them and live in their space and kind of absorb the ethos to reflect it back or something.5:49

Laurel There’s a lot of other things about coding in situ, but that’s the basics. But I’m curious, Henry, for your Footnote app, what’s a note? Is it a picture or a text or…6:29

Henry Yeah that’s why I before I just realized I didn’t turn on the location thing so I just turned.6:52

Laurel On okay we’re gonna have.6:57

Henry Some skipping okay.6:59

Laurel No worries but it’s.7:00

Henry Then later I was like, I feel like every social app has pictures, and people just love taking pictures. And then also pictures already have location on them, so there’s something about that that’s really interesting.

No one really does voice notes, well, at least I would say in America. I think everywhere else people do voice notes, like in chat apps. I know We Chat, people do it, right?7:23

Laurel A lot of my friends in Europe, voice notes. I wonder why that is, why this continent isn’t doing voice notes as much.7:48

Henry I don’t know why we like texting more than speaking. But then it’s weird because I feel like in the car, I don’t know, people do that more. I’m not sure.7:59

Laurel Interesting so you focused on voice notes and then secondary is pictures but.8:10

Henry Then I also thought that sometimes, just like Instagram, all these things, people just post a picture and then it says more than what they want to say.

Or actually another thing is even for myself, if I was thinking of using my own app, it’s like, what do I even say? There’s something very vulnerable about voice, I think, where you can’t really prepare what you want to say, and so I think you have this desire to start over.8:18

Henry Versus a picture, you’re already framing it and then you take a picture.8:49

Laurel What you see is what you get.8:54

Henry But I think some of it was I wanted to capture the ambience of where you’re at too, so you can hear, right now, there’s birds or dogs or people walking in the background. And kind of context, going back to that, right?9:12

Henry It’s not about literally what they said, but I think it’s really about the feeling of that memory.9:38

Henry And then whether it’s for yourself or actually in this case sending it to a friend to create a memory, I suppose. Great.9:47

Laurel So what happens when you leave a voice memo or a photo in a place? Does your friend automatically get a notification that you did or something? Or is it more like you just have to go onto the app and be like, oh, your friend left you something somewhere? How much info do you get?9:55

Henry I was very curious about it. So my initial idea was actually not to do anything. It just doesn’t tell you anything. But it’s just on your app, and it’s hidden. But the idea was in the background, the GPS is on. So when you’re walking, it checks the radius. And so it only notifies you when you’re near.10:16

Laurel Oh, how near? What’s the radius?10:37

Henry Like 10 meters.10:40

Laurel Oh, my goodness. Super surprised.10:41

Henry The point of it was supposed to be serendipity. I want to contrast an algorithmic serendipity, or a company wants you to buy this, versus your friend was at a place and thought of you, and so they decided to make a note, and then hoping that you’ll find it.

I thought something interesting to compare with other read receipts, you know that they got it, is what if you, just like a letter, you don’t know when they get it, or if they ever get it. Maybe it gets lost. So there’s something about that that’s, I don’t know, maybe it’s kind of romantic in a way. But it’s just…10:44

Laurel Yeah, totally. I’ve been thinking about an inherent part of romance, in the broadest sense, is distance, maybe for a kind of field of longing.11:25

Henry I like that.11:41

Henry Save it, that’s fine. This would never happen in a regular podcast. This is part of it. It’s great.11:52

Laurel So have any of your friends found your notes?12:18

Henry Well, not… I think that’s a problem. I think it’s really hard to find.12:26

Henry I also think my thought was, this is only for people you know, right? Not random people. So if you’re friends, you kind of know where they go, right? Or you know their house, or they go to Whole Foods or whatever, so you could put it there.12:41

Henry And then basically guaranteed. But the thing is I just didn’t get people to care enough about using it, so I feel like I’m just kind of mostly doing it for myself.

Which is interesting too: I leave notes at places, and now it’s been years. When I walk somewhere it’s like, “Oh, two years ago I said this or took a picture of this.”12:57

Laurel Oh that’s neat.13:20

Henry Which is kind of nice.13:21

Henry And it’s different from the like one year ago because I actually have to like.13:22

Henry Here we’re at, what, Sheep’s Meadow?13:29

Laurel Oh wow, it’s really popping at Sheep’s Meadow.13:32

Henry Literally only people I can’t even see the green anymore.13:35

Laurel I mean the idea was that it gives you a map that’s really foggy right and you just have to unfog the world.14:16

Henry No, that’s cool.14:31

Laurel Yeah it would drain my battery but I really love the concept.14:32

Henry Because you don’t actually need to know where you are. It’s just whether the note is there. It’s a little bit easier.15:21

Henry Yeah, right now it’s just kind of like a fun idea and I think it’s hard even for myself to use it, so I can’t convince anyone else.15:31

Laurel Sounds like a slow burn style. But it’s a really interesting idea, and now I want to download the test flight.15:41

Henry Yeah, definitely. I thought of a few specific use cases I think that would be interesting. One would be the romantic thing. Say you wanted to propose to someone, you could do, oh, this is a first date or first whatever.15:50

Laurel Wow, that’s really beautiful. It feels like a format for an oral history, making it more fun or slightly gamified. Which is a type of history I feel like is being less and less recorded or something.16:45

Henry I mean, just personally, I’m like, do I even know that much about my own parents, what they went through? And grandparents, not really, which is kind of sad. I feel like that was definitely more common before, right?17:06

Laurel I wonder if you could get them to use the app for a more primitive version or something.17:18

Henry It’s interesting because, especially for something very personal, maybe it brings up things they don’t want to remember. But that would be helpful.

My roommate James, he has a documentary that he did called Ghost Mountain. It was about his dad. They’re Cambodian, so he went through this whole genocide.17:28

Henry But for most of us, we’re not even talking about it.18:15

Laurel Pardon me, my other shoe is untied.18:19

Unconfirmed Okay.18:25

Henry Should take some pictures on the way, I.18:32

Unconfirmed Guess. Yeah.18:34

Henry It’s like a podcast pit stop or something.18:45

Laurel Oh, yeah. That also reminds me, we see some, I guess plaques on these benches. And I feel like these are kind of a physical manifestation of notes left in space. But also crossed with Memorial, which is perfect for Memorial Day.18:48

Henry We can appreciate it for people.19:12

Laurel That reminds me that for a couple years, who knows, maybe it’s going to happen this year, but with my friend Elliott Cost, who I do HTML Energy with, we’ve had an idea to dedicate a park bench to HTML.

So it would kind of be like a fundraiser where half of the money goes to the park to get the bench, because it does cost thousands of dollars in New York anyway, because it’s a fundraising mechanism for the park. But then also raise some money for HTML Energy to put on HTML Day.

So we’ll see, but I like the idea of a place people could go to write HTML, as a monument.19:13

Henry That’s awesome, putting the physical and making it digital and making it physical.20:01

Henry And this is kind of fun because we’re not even planning where we’re gonna walk.20:10

Laurel Yeah, it’s funny, I kind of forgot about the word saunter, but it also reminds me of the word meander.

And I guess there’s the situationalist international group of artists who coined the term, it’s like drift in French, dérive. It was like an unplanned journey.20:17

Henry Is that similar definitely.20:47

Laurel Similar yeah kind of like someone.20:49

Henry Just going back and forth.20:51

Henry Like an open world game, I guess, with side quests.21:06

Laurel You don’t really.21:11

Henry Do the main thing.21:11

Laurel Right. It’s also interesting taking a walk with another person, because it’s not like we’re really negotiating which ways to go. At least I’m not.21:12

Laurel Just kind of going with the flow.21:22

Henry Desire paths is like, even though we’re just following the road, but if someone made a path through the grass, it’s kind of inviting you to take it.21:32

Henry It’s pretty interesting.21:45

Laurel Going back to park benches for a moment, I remember I saw some park benches in the past couple years, or plaques on park benches, that were very esoteric. They would just have dates, and I really was intrigued by them because I was like, “Oh wow, that’s their own secret language.”

And they can still have it be a special memorial, but only for people in the know. I don’t know, I would just kind of assume those were, who knows what they were, but maybe they’re important dates if they’re a couple or the…21:49

Henry Only thing on there was a date.22:27

Laurel Yeah I kind of was giving like On Kawara or artists who just work with dates.22:30

Henry Because that’s what it sounds like to me. It’s like there’s a mystery to it that is part of the appeal. And obviously it’s public, so they want some people to see it, but then not everyone’s going to understand the reference. Maybe they will never understand it.22:50

Laurel Yeah, that’s a really interesting question. I like works that are on this precipice of understandability and mystery. Almost like that uncertainty invites interaction or something.

But I do think dates alone are often pretty cryptic. Then I can think about, “Oh, what was I doing on that date?” Not to make it all about me, but that’s kind of what it invites, the mystery.23:05

Henry Well yeah now I’m what does art invite then.23:39

Laurel I don’t know, it sounds cliche, but maybe a conversation, like icebreaker.23:42

Henry I guess I was thinking, like you said you didn’t want to be about yourself. I feel like isn’t the art inviting you to think about it from your…23:51

Laurel Perspective? Oh, totally. I think that’s natural. And very human.23:57

Henry I mean, you can only think from your own perspective.24:11

The screenshot

Laurel And I have actually been saving my own screenshots. I haven’t deleted one, more or less, since 2008.

So in some ways I feel like they’re almost one of the most quote-unquote accurate logs of what I was doing, given that I use my computer on most days.24:41

Henry Yeah, you’re on your Mac. Exactly. That’s true. I don’t think I usually delete them either until I’m like, “Wait, why do I have so many of these?”25:03

Laurel Oh wow, I’m curious how much background noise these will pick up.25:12

Henry People are skating.25:33

Henry I forgot her name, but someone was sharing, she basically made it a 3D game slash museum of the screenshots that she took during a certain part of her life, and then essentially annotated it.

And it felt very personal. I was like, wow, because it was conversations with people or random pictures that they saved. It almost felt like too much, and actually for herself, looking back years later, it’s like, “Wow, that was pretty personal.”25:38

Laurel Interesting, so it was like she selected specific screenshots and put them in virtual space.26:17

Laurel Wow. And you spoke at Screenshot Conference too, right?26:47

Henry I did one of the talks. And just for context, all the talks were only five to ten minutes. It’s pretty short, which was cool.26:51

Henry And then I think it was just because Cristóbal was visiting, and so they just wanted an excuse to get people together.27:03

Laurel Oh, that’s a great excuse.27:11

Henry I don’t think they really planned it out, which is great. A lot of people came, actually. You would think for something as niche as that it would be nobody. I don’t know, I felt like there was 50 people in there.27:13

Laurel Incredible. I feel like that’s one of the beautiful things about a place like New York: you just say a niche word and 50 people come out of the woodwork or whatever. But I don’t think it’s that niche.27:24

Laurel Especially mobile screenshots feel like the bread and butter.27:46

Henry Everyone’s doing it. Who was it? There was a few other ones I’m forgetting.27:51

Henry So that’s kind of funny. I think what you brought up was about how screenshots are related to time. If you were going to give a talk, what would you talk about?28:42

Laurel Seemed like an important event. Actually, I have to think about it. I will say that the first thought I had when I was considering a lightning talk was that I have this Are.na channel I’ve been cultivating. I guess I looked back at it recently. It’s since 2017.

It’s called Motto Practice, and it just has these short phrases that are all screenshots of mine that almost give me energy or hope in some way. Little turns of phrases. I know one of my friends described it as a fireplace of words. But whenever I look back at these phrases, I just feel really good.29:01

Henry I can see that. How often do you look at those? Or is the practice mainly finding them and adding them or reviewing them?29:53

Laurel But a lot of them are little phrases, it almost feel like they come from RPG games. I feel like there’s a certain type of encouraging imaginative language that is, I feel like, increasingly lost in public writing.30:28

Henry Or you can look it up.30:54

Laurel I’m gonna pull up my Are.na. Maybe I could do a little reading.30:57

Henry Did you say, was it a lot of them from video games, or just what you were thinking of?31:07

Laurel Yeah, there’s a handful from video games, but not that I play that many video games.31:12

Laurel I’ll read some. Let’s see.

“The email is currently in flight.” “The global lost and found solution.” Let’s see. “I’ll do it. I’ll run a clock shop.” “Life is a game, but love is real.” “Sometimes a nicer sculpture is being able to provide a living for your family.”

“Dear readers, dear listeners, electric drum rolls, please.” “You are still a doctor, but your office now is nature.” “Time is quiet and the future is promising.” “If your boss is angry at you, don’t quit. A quiet spirit can overcome even great mistakes.” “That’s the dream anyway, and sometimes it works out.”31:20

Henry Well, it’s interesting when I’m hearing it, it’s like, I guess my experience of it, you saying it out loud, it’s probably different because it’s like the screenshot contains whatever it was, the game or whatever, so it’s like I have no context on what the thing is. But it could be a lot more meaningful because obviously, whether you’re playing the game or watching the video, it’s kind of interesting.32:20

Laurel Yeah, right. How did it sound to you when I just read it?32:39

Henry So I have to introduce my own, which is interesting.32:55

Henry So in a way, it’s very personal, I would think.32:58

Laurel Yeah, I suppose so.33:01

Laurel I’ll also say for a handful of them they’re screenshots of an iMessage conversation. And I have a private Are.na channel that collects those ones. They’re conversations with my friend who lives in Seoul, and so I’ve pulled that one up.

But anyway, I guess it’s kind of nice because for me they all have meaning, and can have these different meta categorizations.33:06

The receipt printer

Henry Now I’m thinking of the receipt printer stuff I’ve been doing too. I’ve noticed the meaning, because I guess it’s not screenshots but more images, because I made a way to easily print text or images. I keep noticing it’s mostly images. It was originally like, oh, you could print whatever you want, text. But then once you could print a photo and it’s somewhat, you can see the photo because it’s dithered.33:45

Henry People just want to print photos.

And then it’s funny because the photos that people print are obviously the ones on the app in their gallery. And people spend a long time trying to find one photo that they want to print, which is really interesting because I tell them there’s no ink, and so it doesn’t cost that much. You can print as many as you want. But people are scrolling, trying to find this very meaningful thing.34:19

Henry When they print it, people really want to take care of it. It’s just a piece of paper, but because it’s their photo, their dog or their kid or whatever it is, it’s very meaningful. And they want to make sure doesn’t get crumpled in their pocket, because it’s physical now.34:45

Laurel That’s really interesting. What types of photos do you find people print?34:59

Henry I think that there’s different categories. I feel like one is just straight up funny memes, which those are probably more screenshots, I guess.

And then also I think it would probably just be someone they care about. But then also it might be even what they think will show up well on the receipt printer.35:08

Henry So it’ll do the whole thing. It’s not just like… So if you did a really long panorama, it’d be like a scrolling size.36:07

Laurel And also I saw that you can print bigger photos too and it kind of tiles it. Is that right?36:16

Henry Yeah, I did add a feature to split. Normally it resizes the photo because it’s too big for the printer. It’s very short, it’s only like 300 pixels.

So it just blows it up and then tries to tile it, and then you have to, I guess, tape it together, which I’ve been doing.36:22

Laurel Cool. Yeah. I’m curious, what got you into exploring with receipt printers?36:45

Laurel Oh, that’s really cool. Yeah, it’s kind of a way to memorialize something in situ.37:32

Henry Exactly, like the, what’s it called? Polaroid.37:39

Laurel That reminds me that I once hosted a holiday party. It was before the pandemic. But for some reason, I showed, like, one person that you could, as long as you were on my Wi -Fi, you could print to my printer from your phone. And so people just started printing the photos they were taking at the event to my printer. It was incredible.37:44

Henry A bit scary because you’re like anyone you give that link to it’s like they can just send whatever they want at any moment.38:22

Henry Or they do it.38:27

Laurel It reminds me of what fax machines might have been like back in the day, right?38:31

Henry Exactly. They have a lot of responsibility, in a sense, to not share the link. But then also that means no one’s ever thought to print it when they’re not there, which is really interesting because that’s how it works. But I think people think that they have to be there, but they don’t. Kind of interesting.38:36

Laurel I guess you could take a picture of it or something.39:11

Henry You take a screenshot or picture of the picture.39:13

Laurel Gonna go like a screenshot of a screenshot yeah and it can have a lot of meaning that way yeah is that right.39:42

Henry I can see that, for sure. I was even thinking, even at the base level, just the fact that screenshot, like you said before, it holds time, it holds space. So those are already layers. But then you said you could take a screenshot. I guess each one carries its own meaning as well.39:49

Henry I was going to ask, I don’t know if you wanted to talk about, but the classes that you’re doing, it seems related to…40:31

Walking the Internet

Laurel Definitely so I’m doing three classes this summer they’re mostly based in New York City and, yeah, applications are open now until this Friday, at least for the first two. But the third one, which is relevant to this, is called Walking the Internet. And that application is due June 20th, so some more time.

But basically it’s like a walking tour of Internet infrastructure in New York City for three Saturdays in July, Saturday afternoons.40:41

Laurel And I guess it was inspired because I read this book by Ingrid Burrington. Do you know it? Networks of New York. It was a little older, it’s published in 2016, but it’s a small book about how Ingrid went on this journey to figure out where physically the internet is.

And this idea that if you are in an urban place, you can kind of see clues by looking below and above you. I guess just noticing manhole covers or the spray painting that communication companies do, and kind of starting to learn this as a secret language in everyday life.41:17

Laurel And also looking above, and I don’t know, figuring if you’re under surveillance. I guess it’s kind of noticing all these physical clues that indicate that there’s these network things happening.42:09

Henry This way? I don’t know.42:31

Henry You’re kind of blind to this infrastructure, right? It’s just in the background.42:55

Laurel Yeah, exactly. And I’m co-leading these walks with my friend Alex Wolf, who’s a walking artist. Walking is his primary art form, although he’s also a writer.43:02

Henry What does that mean?43:16

Laurel What does it mean? He goes on walks and he writes about them and takes pictures. And I know right now he’s actually working on a novel about someone walking from Philadelphia to New York. And it’s based on his own experience.43:17

Henry You want to take a picture? Oh.43:36

Unconfirmed (photo exchange) Okay sure.43:47

Henry We’re taking a picture for some lady.43:49

Laurel Oh I don’t know how to work.43:54

Henry What is this oh it’s in like different language what.43:57

Unconfirmed (photo exchange) Is this.44:04

Henry I feel like she already took it. Okay, yeah, I think she was in, oh, is that okay, or another one? The whole thing? Yeah, okay.44:06

Unconfirmed (photo exchange) Okay.44:33

Henry Okay, I didn’t get the whole frame.44:33

Unconfirmed (photo exchange) Okay.44:43

Henry Okay thank.44:45

Unconfirmed (photo exchange) You.44:47

Unconfirmed (photo exchange) Oh good.44:47

Laurel Know is that a memorial.45:05

Henry And then also, I feel like people don’t usually ask people to take pictures anymore because they just do a selfie.45:17

Laurel Oh, yeah. So it’s kind of.45:23

Henry Interesting, the social change, right? But then maybe if you’re not from here, then maybe they’ll just do it.45:24

Henry I don’t even know where we are anymore.45:36

Laurel I wonder if we’re by Strawberry Fields Have you been to the Imagine Mosaic?45:38

Henry No We just passed Sheeps Oh.45:45

Laurel Yeah We’re close to Strawberry Fields It’s probably going to be packed But let’s maybe walk by.45:51

Unconfirmed I know.46:13

Henry Oh, here I see.46:15

Henry I had bike the loop a few times.46:20

Laurel Oh, yeah?46:22

Henry But usually on the city bike, e -bike.46:23

Laurel Oh, nice. Did you get the city bike near here and just do it oh.46:26

Henry Just go over the bridge and stuff.46:36

Laurel Yeah it’s been fun do you bike much.46:37

Henry I think city biking is very different from biking. But my roommate actually has an actual light bike where you can actually go and stuff like that. I think the problem with the city bike, it’s so heavy you can’t really do anything.46:43

Laurel Right if it’s hilly.46:56

Henry Unless you get an e -bike.46:57

Henry And then it’s not really an exercise thing but it is fun.46:59

Henry I enjoy it. That’s another example, what I was saying: being able to have different modes of transportation definitely changed your awareness of both the stations and where you can go and stuff like that. It’s the same idea, right?47:05

Henry The theme of the class, like, walking to experience infrastructure?47:46

Laurel Yeah, infrastructure of the internet. And I guess the official tagline is exploring physical and cultural infrastructure. And I suppose just that the internet is physical but also cultural phenomenon.47:55

Laurel And at the same time, there will be stops at the National Debt Clock. There’s this artwork in Times Square that’s actually a sound art piece. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of it, by Max Niehaus. It’s actually coming out under the grates at this one part of Times Square.

So I feel like maybe an overall theme is just noticing kind of hidden elements around or below us or above us. So it will be fun. And then one other theme is we’re going to explore some privately owned public spaces, or POPS. Do you know about those?48:11

Henry Well, I think I know some parks at least.48:57

Henry I’ve heard of some.49:00

Laurel I mean, I’m still wrapping my mind around them, but I think there’s over 500 in the city.

I was recently looking at a digital map, but my understanding is that basically commercial enterprises make things like walkways or atriums or plazas or parks in exchange for, I don’t know, going higher on their skyscraper or things like that. So they’re privately owned public spaces. Which in the end they kind of have a weird reputation of not always being accessible right.49:01

Unconfirmed Yeah.49:50

Laurel Have you ever gone on a boat in Central Park the.49:50

Henry I don’t remember, but I definitely have. Maybe more than once.49:59

Henry I’ve definitely done it when my mom came, too, actually.50:03

Laurel Oh, that’s nice. That seems like a parent activity.50:06

Henry Yes. That’s fun.50:10

Laurel Yeah, I’d like to do that this summer.50:14

Henry Just have no desire to.50:25

Laurel Right. It’s almost like you need a visitor to activate it.50:27

Henry Basically, or sometimes I purposely don’t go until someone comes.50:29

Laurel I think that’s pretty normal.50:36

Laurel But yeah there’s something special about the energy of a guest certain guests.50:40

Henry I guess the energy that you get for being hospitable or something.50:48

Henry I feel like you brought up the word energy a lot.50:58

Laurel Oh, yeah. I mean, I do have…51:01

Henry The motto and then HTML Energy. Right. I guess that’s kind of related to vibe coding, perhaps.51:05

Unconfirmed Yeah,51:10

Laurel Maybe. I don’t know.51:10

Laurel Although, yeah, we do have the .energy domain for HTML Energy.

And I guess actually I think this relates to a broader theme we’re talking about which is once you realize one thing has energy you can start to realize everything has energy not to get too galaxy brain.51:14

Henry No, but I guess it’s like once you see something you can’t help but see it in everything from that lens, I guess.51:34

Henry I could be like, “Oh, everything is open source,” or something. I don’t know, because you just start, you can’t help it.51:44

Laurel Yeah, what do you think the energy of open sources? Because I would imagine if there was a Venn diagram of HTML Energy and open source energy, there would be some overlap.51:52

Henry I mean, I guess HTML giving that view source stuff, it’s like it is open, so there’s that aspect, is pretty parallel or intersecting the energy of us. I don’t know, the first thing I think is usually the word freedom. But then freedom is kind of a, it could mean a lot of things.52:03

Henry The classic phrase that people say is free as in speech, not free as in beer. What do you think?52:27

Laurel I mean, that’s a good question. I’ll relate it to HTML Energy in the sense of a tagline we use is “return to source” or “view source,” which is literally something you can do with handmade HTML sites. I guess I usually use a Mac because I use Command-U shortcut to view the HTML source code.

And I guess it can be inspiring for people who are starting out or something to be like, “Oh, behind this incredible thing, it’s not magic. It’s all human-readable, and for me to adapt and learn from, it’s all there.” You just kind of have to inspect it.52:40

Henry Oh I see the bar is like that’s fine.53:59

Laurel It’s kind of nice to.54:10

Henry Rest. I kind of like this idea, I don’t know, maybe being able to be interrupted.54:13

Laurel That makes sense.54:22

Henry Maybe that has something to do with being in context.

It’s like in the real world it’s messy. You can’t control the environment, and so you just gotta go with flow, right? That kind of thing.54:24

Laurel Right, my shoe got untied three times now, and also we were asked to take a picture for someone. I wonder what will happen next.54:40

Henry There’s sort of a fun aspect of that. I’m kind of anticipating some kind of surprise, which is fun.54:50

Just the conversation

Henry Or we’re open to that, I think it’s another thing. When you’re doing a podcast, everything has to sound perfect, and you get rid of all the ums and uhs and filler words and all these things. And a different way to do it is just the conversation, right?54:58

Laurel Yeah, totally. It also reminds me, I guess when I first did my own podcast, that was the HTML Energy podcast, which we did in the year 2020, in 2021 a little bit.

But I remember that I was just trying to think of myself as a listener of podcasts, and oftentimes I’m listening to them actually when I’m in transit, like on the subway.55:14

Laurel For me in that environment the base volume actually needs to be kind of high. There’s certain podcasts I would listen to where I couldn’t hear them. I don’t know if this is just me, but I was really trying to think of someone in situ.

And so I guess that’s the balancing act of us being in situ: how do we create something for people who can also be in situ?55:40

Henry Yeah, it’s true. I think most people that listen, they’re not just not doing anything else and just listening. No one really does that.56:09

Henry There’s something about that that’s interesting.56:27

Laurel I’m curious, what’s the process like of your podcast, or the making or recording aspects?56:29

Henry I think it’s changed over the years, really.56:41

Laurel Because you’ve been doing it for a while.56:47

Henry It’s been since 2018. Again, it’s not every week, and I’m not doing it as a job, so I feel like I could just do whatever. Hopefully I don’t feel tied to have a certain format or a certain topic or anything, right?

Because in the end, it’s just, oh, okay, it’s just my podcast.56:49

Henry It’s open source. It doesn’t have to be about open source. It doesn’t have to be about faith or anything either. Because of that, leading towards not caring as much. I don’t need to make an interview and then have a set number of questions or always asking the same question. It’s kind of like the walk that we’re doing.57:09

Laurel Yeah, good title. But I was admiring how you have the whole transcript, and you annotated it depending on the section or the theme of that section, right?58:12

Henry I did want to make it easier to reference.58:26

Laurel In the future?58:30

Henry Actually more for myself even.58:31

Laurel That’s interesting because I’ve also done something similar with HTML Energy, include quotes from people in my teaching materials. And so I really like when things loop back in on themselves, or become a internal reference.58:35

Henry Although, now I’m thinking, it’d be funny if you create a link to a future podcast, I guess. Like, hey, we should talk about this.59:02

Laurel Oh, yeah. Oh, it’s like a red link in Wikipedia.59:10

Henry I don’t think I’ve ever done that, but it would be funny.59:18

Laurel I saw you have seasons on your podcast how do you know when a season is over or what’s the definition of a season.59:20

Henry I wish I had a good answer for that. Honestly, I feel like there’s a lot of episodes, so I just changed it. I feel like maybe the kind of things I’m talking about has changed a little bit, but it’s not really a good reason for it.59:29

Henry If anything it should probably just be one season.59:51

Henry I think initially it’s because I merged a different podcast I was doing. I called it Maintainers Anonymous, because it was kind of like Alcoholics Anonymous but for maintainers.59:56

Laurel Because that’s a huge part of open source, right?1:00:10

Henry And I had this desire to interview non-programming maintainers, basically.1:00:13

Laurel Oh awesome but.1:00:19

Henry I’m like okay it’s basically the same topic so I’m like I just say it one thing that was mostly.1:00:20

Laurel This one essential library. Or I don’t know. Like.1:00:47

Henry That one is a classic. I feel like every time someone mentions it, I mean, now I think about it, it’s kind of sad. We’re kind of stuck in this place where people think that that’s what open source is.1:00:56

Laurel So tell me, what is it?1:01:10

A philosophy of creation

Henry I don’t know. I feel like it’s like saying what is… I think it can be so broad. Maybe that’s the issue. There’s so many definitions that you could have of it. Maybe initially, if you just read the words as it is, it’s like open source. Okay, it’s just HTML. The source is open.

But I kind of think of… It’s more of a philosophy of creation and then also the process behind it. So the code can be open, but the process might be less open or more open or whatever. Maybe people write down their meeting notes on what they decided for the project. Maybe you can join their calls. There’s team meetings or something.1:01:11

Laurel There’s a spectrum of openness.1:01:58

Henry Yeah, because there are some projects like famously SQLite, they’re, I guess, I forgot the word. It was like source available or something. Like this you can read it but they don’t want any contributions like purpose say they don’t want anyone to actually contribute.1:02:00

Laurel Oh, it’s almost like they make it, so why do they make it open? Is it almost to be a model for other projects, or just because it’s easier for them to access, or…1:02:15

Henry Is it almost out.1:03:22

Laurel Oh, the battery’s low, but it’s still alive. Keep going.1:03:23

Henry I printed out something in my background. I’ll give it to you later, but I printed out the text of one of your sites, I think.1:03:45

Laurel Amazing thank you that’s really exciting it’s like a.1:03:54

Henry A fun thing.1:03:57

Laurel It’s like a moment and.1:03:58

Henry Then Cristóbal actually did write, I think he wrote an essay just called Lightness, and he might have talked about some similar things.1:04:00

Laurel Definitely. I’ve been a fan of what Cristóbal is doing and following his lightness threads.1:04:06

Henry And then I was saying you had a picture of someone that had a kite of a computer.1:04:13

Laurel Yes, actually Omar sent me that. So Omar took a photo of an IBM ThinkPad box or found it on the web. I think this was from the 90s, 1994.

There’s this drawing they used to advertise the ThinkPad, which at the time was 4.1 pounds. It was the most Ultralight model at the time. Oh, that’s funny.1:04:21

Henry That’s a good context. Because I was thinking of a MacBook Air.1:04:49

Laurel I do have a MacBook Air actually in my backpack right now, and I’m walking. It’s still pretty heavy. I.1:04:54

The art of the everyday carry

Laurel Have to say, it’s crazy how things add up. I like to feel really prepared in my everyday life, but I oftentimes feel like I’m carrying more things than most people. So I feel like the art of the everyday carry is really interesting to me. Not that I’ve nerded out too hard.

But Ultra light, basically, when you look it up in the dictionary, it means extremely lightweight. But I recently went into ultra and light more on their own terms, and ultra usually just means very or extremely.

But it can also mean on the other side of, or beyond, or transcending. Kind of like ultraviolet rays are beyond the visible spectrum, and…1:05:02

Laurel Ultrasound is beyond normal frequencies. So to me at least, what it makes me think of is different ways of perceiving something. Maybe an animal can see ultraviolet rays and we can’t. And I guess I just really like this inviting of multiple perspectives or ways into something.

And then I find Ultra light backpacking material or camping stuff really interesting. This super designed object that’s kind of meant to be super lightweight so you can, I don’t know, not have too much in your pack while you’re in motion. But they require so much engineering, right? And…1:05:54

Laurel So there’s this interesting relationship between heaviness and lightness, that so much energy has to go into making this ultra light thing.

And so when I’m interested in the word ultra light, I don’t mean to say I’m only interested in light things. I’m kind of interested in this balance between a central gravity and almost a way of being in the world that’s anchored by that gravity, but open to going with the flow because you are anchored.

And there’s other ways to think about it too. I guess in terms of limitations is also interesting. If we’re going to talk about art and design styles, things like your receipt printer have limitations.1:06:47

Laurel And they oftentimes produce pretty interesting results because of those meaningful limitations, right? And maybe you could say there’s certain ways of making that have been lost in a quest to make everything really modern.1:07:40

Henry I think it’s interesting because I feel like we still have the desire now, better cameras and ai and all these things like the more realistic the more real I mean through pixels right.

But then I was thinking of that there’s a really good comic or the book understanding comics oh.1:08:12

Henry And they had this really interesting diagram of a realistic face, and then you have an emoji, essentially, and the two spectrums. But it’s easier to know that someone’s smiling because it’s an emoji, because you didn’t have the detail.

And I thought that was kind of obvious, but then the way he framed it was like, “Oh wow, obviously less detail makes it easier to see the emotion,” stuff like that. And that’s why comics can work really well.1:08:31

Laurel That’s really interesting. And maybe on a related note, I don’t know if it’s that related, but sometimes I do this still life exercise with my classes where I set up some flowers and fruit, and I ask everyone to depict it, but using HTML and CSS as drawing tools.

Although what I’m saying could work with any tools, but I guess maybe the reason to talk about it in HTML and CSS is if you asked an AI to depict this still life, it could do it, right? But I feel like the interesting thing is the way you see it, and that’s what makes the drawing meaningful.1:08:56

Henry It’s a 5x5 grid of words. And so you say, animal three, and that means that there’s three words on the board that have to do with animal for your team, like the blue team or whatever. And so it could be, dog or cat, whatever.1:10:41

Henry So everyone’s like, what the heck is this? This weird option, you’re trying to compare this weird wave of string to see what it is. It’s fun. It’s an easy game. But you only get the limitation of the thing.1:11:48

Laurel My family recently got into this, I guess, board game called Dixit. Have you heard of that?1:12:14

Henry It’s kind of me related. I have it.1:12:19

Laurel It’s pretty interesting because my seven -year -old niece can also play.

And it’s neat how it incorporates, I guess, different senses. Like you could have a clue that’s not words but just like a sound or a dance.1:12:21

Henry Yeah, it was funny because normally people play, I think it’s a card against humanity or apples to apples.

But then Dixit is interesting because it does say you can do anything. But I think the funny part is I feel like people just pick words because it’s easier. But then if someone could do a sound or a dance or a movement, I think that’s probably more interesting.1:12:35

Henry And maybe specifically for a kid, it was even more fun. Because it’s like people don’t even understand what they’re saying so it’s like perfect yeah it’s more fun.1:12:59

Laurel Yeah, and I remember I used to work where does my clue that my niece didn’t know, and she’s like, “Can you do a dance instead, or a sound?” Yeah, okay, I’ll try to translate it.1:13:08

Henry Is translation. It’s fun.1:13:29

Laurel Are there any spots in Central Park that are your favorites, or do you know Central Park that well? I mean, you’ve biked around it a lot.1:13:42

Henry I have to think about it.1:13:50

Henry That’s kind of interesting. Right. Yeah. But it’s cool that it’s big enough where something could become your favorite spot. It’s not an obvious place, necessarily.1:14:11

Laurel Oh it’s a really great name makes a lot of sense in multiple ways I.1:14:29

Henry I did it run out okay it.1:14:46

Laurel May have run out. Okay.1:14:48

Henry Now we’re going to do the switch off then.1:14:51

Laurel Okay. Oh, wow. Can we go there? Yeah, sure.1:14:53

Henry Do you know Kairos, like the word?1:15:02

Laurel It’s like different feelings of time.1:15:08

Henry Exactly, yeah. That’s what I was getting at was I wanted it to be like when you received the note, it would be like a moment of Kairos, like appointed time or something.1:15:09

Laurel Oh because Chronos is more like mathematical time.1:15:18

Henry Yeah clock time or just Ordinary Time this is funny I mentioned this in the talk actually the screenshot comp oh.1:15:24

Laurel Really oh you mentioned Kairos and Chronos.1:15:33

Henry Just like how it relates to screenshots, I was thinking that when you only have text, it feels like it’s out of context. Almost as if it could have been said at any moment in time or place or person. It’s just there.

But I feel like if you have a screenshot of that text or just a picture, you see the context. And so I was thinking just like Kairos and Chronos is for time.

And then for space and place, it’s like space is just X Y coordinates, and then place is a meaning. “Oh, this is my house,” or “This is where we gather,” right?1:15:37

Ordinary time

Laurel That’s really interesting. It also reminds me the phrase Ordinary Time is part of the liturgical calendar, right?

It’s funny, I think I’m late to the game. I only learned about that time of the year, that it had that name, in the past year or two. But I really love the phrase Ordinary Time. You do too?1:16:20

Unconfirmed Yes.1:16:45

Henry James actually bought me this calendar, a liturgical calendar for the church, and it’s very beautiful and kind of just depicts how the church has thought about time. It’s kind of funny: it’s not all the same. And so how should you section off your whole life, and then also every year?

And I think of the ones we would normally think of as Christmas and Easter. Those are pretty obvious, the birth and death for Christ, and then also the two time periods before both of those. And so most people probably have heard of Advent, which actually just means coming. And because we have Advent of Code, funnily enough.

And then there’s also Lent right before Easter, and then there’s a bunch of other stuff in between. But it’s the main two, and it’s funny because both of those are periods of waiting, right? Waiting for Christ to come, and also come again, and then also I guess his death as well.

So it’s kind of interesting that the whole practice of the faith is around waiting, or a time of grieving even, right?

And actually for the talk I was saying that it’s Sunday, and so I was like, “I skipped church, but I’m gonna give a mini sermon,” or whatever. And the idea was just trying to explain what is the point of Sabbath.1:16:45

Henry Just experiencing a screenshot could bring you in and out of time.1:18:46

Laurel Oh, that’s really cool. And quick question, is Ordinary Time in the liturgical calendar, when is that exactly?1:18:54

Henry Yeah, it’s mostly the, I’d say the main period of that is literally between after Easter until Advent. But there are other, I mean, they fill in all these things like different holidays or saints or different festivals or feasts, stuff like that.

It’s funny, I’m not that familiar myself. I think coming to the faith more Protestant, and then also a lot of, let’s say, the American church that has been less liturgical, I feel like people are trying to embrace it more recently, relatively recently.

Because I think Protestantism is about protest. It’s about, you could say it’s about rebellion too. You could say that’s the American spirit, which is not always good. I think we usually say that we threw the baby out with the bath water.

People are kind of misusing or abusing liturgy in certain ways. “Oh, you have to do this,” or feel very, I would just say law, these rules and stuff. So we just get rid of everything. “Oh, the only thing left is baptism, communion, and you gotta read the Bible.”

And I think that can be good, but then it feels like we just reduce everything, and we also lose the use of our senses.

In the Catholic churches, or Orthodox, they care about the incense. They care about literally the structure of the building itself. And then Protestant church, you just go there and it feels like school or an office building or something like that.1:19:04

Henry So it’s been an interesting journey to see both personally and then I think in a larger sense, where are we in that balance, I guess.1:20:48

Laurel Oh, wow. That’s really fascinating. And you said that you think people have been caring more about senses of time and the liturgical calendar. I do also wonder if this is at all related to coming out of the pandemic and time feeling all the same or something. Yeah.

But it’s interesting to talking about time and different senses of time, because I’ve recently been thinking about the feeling of time when you’re in school or in some kind of learning environment and how that has a different quality.1:20:58

Laurel Even the semester always almost being this narrative arc built in for students to be on some kind of journey, and the breaks being really important features of being able to kind of have some kind of personal odyssey or something.1:21:39

Henry I think that makes a lot of sense. We’re always looking for a way to describe our own story, and so I think that makes sense.

Even the sermon I listened to, I guess yesterday, there’s so many ways to characterize someone’s story. And I think in the Bible a lot of it is around this other word that we don’t really use anymore. We call it exile.

And I think that’s kind of interesting, or this idea of being in a, maybe people say the word desert season. Or maybe you’re in a good season. So it’s kind of interesting that that is okay, or that is expected. That we don’t think that every moment is going to be amazing, and that it could be a opportunity to kind of reflect and rethink.

And I think that’s played out really well in Genesis 1, where it’s like, what was the whole point of this creation story in the first place?

I think God does all the creation. In the last day he’s like, “Oh, I’m gonna rest,” right? If God, who is in this story the creator of everything, chooses the rest, and just even if you don’t believe it, why wouldn’t we do it?1:22:02

Laurel We’re.1:23:32

Henry Not even God and we’re like we need to continue to produce and stuff and I think that’s really interesting.

And so I think part of the lesson there is even the context of the Jews being slaves and so if the first story is like hey you should take a break it’s kind of interesting that your identity isn’t caught up in what you produce and I think that’s also very relevant right now because of the ai, people feeling useless and stuff.1:23:33

Laurel Oh yeah, totally. That’s really fascinating, and really important. I remember when I first started working after graduating from school, I was like, “Wait a second, we’re just gonna keep going? There’s no company-wide summer break?”

I mean, obviously I didn’t think that there would be, but I guess my mom’s always told me that she believes that teachers have the best quality of life. And I don’t know, I haven’t read any studies.

But I guess just the idea of summer break, and even there are other cultures who take longer summer breaks, and it’s more of this culturally, socially, community-wide decision that feels very healthy.1:24:00

Laurel It’s also really interesting that, I guess on that note, I heard that Korea and Japan recently instituted a four-day work week, I think to increase birth rates.

But I will say this also makes me think, I guess, thinking about rest and how it’s important in, I mean, all contexts, but emphasized in religion, spirituality, school, many other contexts. I guess to get concrete, when I was coming up with names for my school, actually that was kind of a saga, to be honest, just because I wasn’t sure what to call it for a long time.

And I remember my mom told me that I should call it Tuesday School. And she was like, Tuesday, well, it is the day I was born on, but she was like, “It’s not about all of your classes happening on a Tuesday. It’s more of a Tuesday frame of mind, where the work week is just getting going.” It’s just a kind of typical day of the work week.

But I guess what I liked about it, even though I didn’t end up going with Tuesday School, is just the frame of Tuesday. And how if I call something Tuesday School, it might make people remember my school every Tuesday, or recurring, or start to think about Tuesday in a kind of special frame of mind. It’s funny.1:24:55

Laurel Wednesday.

But then I was like looking up tuesday and it’s kind of mythology and I mean according to different traditions yeah it has different roots I do think it’s connected with mars the planet of action in war so I don’t know if I was that keen on that association but anyway I’m a fan of tuesday in general.

But I was thinking of a handful of other names too but I realized that I’ve been working with the word Ultralight for a few years now I guess two years and I realized that I should maybe just continue what.1:26:38

Henry Were the other ones in contention, or were there any?1:27:31

Laurel Yeah, great question. I will say one of the other classes I’m running this summer is called TWA, and it stands for a few different things. It could stand for total work of art, thinking with air, or three worlds aligned. I could get into that more if you want.1:27:35

Henry Those sounds I have no idea.1:27:54

Laurel You have no idea. I’ll unpack it for a sec. So this idea for a class started, oh wow, we’re close to the Cooper Hewitt. Oh cool, I’ve actually never been there.1:27:56

Laurel Okay.1:28:18

Thinking with air

Laurel So this idea for TWA started because I was talking to my friend Stephen Kwok, and he works at the Dia Art Foundation, running public engagement. So he asked me to do a workshop for teenagers on how to build a kite, and I did it, and it was really fun.

So we kept on talking, and then he was like, “Oh, the best class I took when I was in grad school during my MFA was called Shapeshifters.” And the idea is that the teacher kind of set up a structure: near the end of the semester there’s going to be a screening here, and you all have to show a film. And then on this date you’re going to install or make an installation here. And then at this date you’re going to do some kind of event, and it’s going to happen here.

And so it’s kind of about taking one idea and expressing it in different ways. But also just having this structure set up was kind of helpful. And so in our class you have to come in with one core idea and express it as a digital thing, a physical thing, and then a temporal or event thing. So it’s about shape-shifting, but we call it TWA, total work of art.

Which is related to this German term gesamt kunstwerk, which kind of relates, the composer Richard Wagner was popularizing it in the 1800s. And it’s basically, he made operas, but they also involved theater and architecture and this synthesis of the arts.

And then I’ve been reading this book by Fred Turner called The Democratic Surround, and kind of about the Bauhaus school, which also incorporated many different mediums. And how they were trying to, through their arts curriculum, create psychologically whole individuals who were masters at their craft but could also understand how it applied in the world. And that’s why this interdisciplinarity or multi-modality was important.

But then I don’t know, this term total work of art kind of has a feeling of dominance and control. But when we looked at all of our arts practices, they’re more about going with a certain process and not being set on a fixed outcome.

And so then we came up with the term thinking with air. It was like, how do you create not a set of works, but more of an atmosphere for things to happen within? So TWA, total work of art, and then thinking with air.

And then the last one is three worlds aligned, because there’s three teachers, and it’s me, Stephen, and Bryant Wells. And we made this Venn diagram, three circles, and they all overlap. And we realized that I’m in the digital and temporal camp, Steven is in the physical and temporal camp, and Bryant makes radios and other physical computing stuff, I mean, among other things, but he’s in the digital and physical camp. So it kind of perfectly worked out.

I kind of forgot where I was going with this story, but that was the total work of art class.1:28:19

Henry Just explaining.1:31:57

Laurel Anyway, but I will say that one thing that’s been cool about, because we’ve been talking about this actually for over a year, so it’s been cooking for a while. And I guess it’s been really grounding for me to almost come up with this sort of theory and then be able to, I don’t know, offer it to people, I guess, as a way of testing it out. Not saying it’s perfect or whatever, but…1:31:58

Henry It’s funny, you’re like grounding, but the theory is about air, I guess.1:32:33

Laurel I guess it’s about a balance of ground and air.1:32:38

Laurel But before I forget this, it’s funny, I had this memory come up because we’re walking in Central Park. And I was thinking about your app called Footnote and this kind of hidden nature of it.

So one time, this was a while ago, like before the pandemic, I organized a surprise half birthday party for my friends who are twins. And their birthday typically falls in December. So it’s often overlooked by holidays. And so I instead of having a surprise birthday in December when no one is usually present anyway because they’re in their hometowns or whatnot I.1:33:07

Laurel But I guess there was this, I was just thinking it relates, because we’re in Central Park and I guess the hidden nature of time or something like that.1:34:29

Henry I guess I just wanted that the physical space would be able to remind us of things, and clearly it does, so it would be nice to… People always talk about second brains and offloading these things, but I don’t know. I guess I think of the memory palace thing and people memorizing things through space, which I haven’t tried, but I know that it works.1:34:40

Henry So what if there’s a way to subtly do that without being so intentional? Like, I feel like when people, you know, we’re doing flashcards and spatial repetition.

But is there a way to do that naturally? And I think that’s kind of interesting where we would just have these. Maybe I shouldn’t call them notes. Maybe it should be something else like memories or something.1:35:09

Henry And just wanting to keep going back.1:35:32

Henry And then another thing I like thinking about is this idea of being able to create a third place out of nothing, basically. So if I left a note for you in this random part of Central Park, and I mean this would be not a great place right here, but somewhere that people would probably go to again, I think it’s just interesting, you could have a conversation at a location.

And similar to limitation, it’s a reminder that we’re not ubiquitous and we can’t teleport anywhere we want. There’s a meaning and having to put in the effort to go somewhere to say something or receive something.1:35:40

Laurel That’s really interesting and meaningful. That reminds me too, I was having a conversation with a friend recently about how, I guess, living in a city it’s typical that you have a lack of private outdoor space. And so I guess putting this layer on top of public outdoor space is kind of a way of making it special, or making it private.1:36:23

Henry No one else knows that this random coordinate matters to you, right?1:36:53

Laurel Yeah, exactly. It kind of brings me back to putting a meaningful date to you on a plaque as a way of almost taking that for yourself.1:36:57

Henry I think of Omar’s Folk Computer. Folk is part of a good word for that. I think it’s either taking something that’s private or public and then reclaiming it without them knowing, I guess.

Because it’s funny, because you were saying all those private spaces owned by, or public spaces owned by private people. But I guess it’s kind of like the opposite in a sense, because you don’t actually broadcast it anywhere. So like you said, it’s hidden.1:37:13

Laurel Yeah, I was thinking, I wonder if we want to put a note somewhere as a way to memorialize this walk on Memorial Day.1:37:43

Henry I don’t even know what works. I don’t even know if this works anymore. I haven’t tried it in so long.

It’s funny because I’m running this other app at the same time. Oh yeah, I have to turn this on.

The only annoying thing is these apps you have, or the way it works now is you kind of have to have background location on.1:37:58

Laurel Maybe, who knows, what do you think? We could pick a tree or what looks good to you. I guess sometimes there’s rocks, but I see a lot of trees right now.1:38:24

Laurel Yeah, it’ll be interesting to pick a tree. I feel like trees that you can climb are cool, but maybe like a nondescript tree. An ordinary tree, kind of like Ordinary Time.

That also reminds me, before I made my list of school names to choose from, I was, just for fun, I thought of school of Ordinary Time. And I actually just like the feeling of it. But I wasn’t sure if I wanted that deep of a religious name at the outset.1:38:39

Henry Oh, do you think… I guess people wouldn’t associate Ordinary Time with that anyway, but…1:39:16

Laurel Yeah, but I really like the name and the idea of it.1:39:26

Laurel Nice. Okay, so you memorialized this tree?1:39:51

Henry Yes. I mean, I can record the note later, too.1:39:55